dc using time out

[skeettafic]

The director of Jocelyn's dc asked me what we use for discipline with Jocelyn because she is not handling time out well at their center.  They said that when she is put in to (always after 3 warnings, a 1-2-3 Magic approach) that she just sits and cries and cries about wanting me or wanting to go home.  They said that the worst part is that they won't let anyone comfort her during those times either.  She screams "leave me alone" and sobs.  They said they just feel horrible that she is so upset.  The reason she gets to, usually, is for running so the behavior itself isn't what's concerning just her reaction to the consequence.  I told them that up to now we've had to do very little in the discipline realm because she's always been pretty mellow and that the couple of times we've used it we've told her she needs to go to her room to calm down and we usually go with her.  Other than that, if we ask her to stop doing something, she stops. 

he director felt better once I explained to her that to is very new to her and that we still mainly redirect and use natural consequences.  I am going to start really talking to Jocelyn about walking at school and asking her to show me how she can walk to the cubby to put away her coat and walk to the refrigerator to get her lunch bag and stuff like that to help her learn that she needs to walk while at school.  The director also said that they will try to use more redirection with her to try and see if that makes a difference.

Any other thoughts?

[JenBerry]

Yeah, I think that honestly, it's very rare that they should have to use time-outs at this age.  Of course this depends on the teacher's knowledge of how to do time-out effectively (as a calming down/rest period, not a punishment) and how many kids are in the room, etc.  At my preschool, where I have 6 kids ranging in age from that of our Dec. kids (Nigel is in my room) all the way to new-3s, there is only one child with whom I've found time-outs to be the ONLY effective thing.  And that was after I'd been trying everything else under the sun including Pos Discipline techniques.  And he's been in my room, so it's not like he doesn't know the rules, he just doesn't want to follow them.   To be fair, at home he doesn't get any discipline until he goes too far, and then it's something punitive like spanking, privileges/toys lost, or the newest one is that they're washing his mouth out with soap for saying "I hate you" to them.   So the Pos Discipline stuff was, unfortunately, so foreign as to be ineffective.  We're having good success with 1-2-3 Magic, but again, he's the ONLY one I have to use that with.  Even the older 3s classes don't use time-outs with such regularity as what it sounds like your dc does, they find other more positive techniques to get the kids to cooperate.  I'd definitely work with Jocelyn on walking at home, and tell the teacher what works best to get her to do it, such as "Jocelyn, show me your slow snail feet!!"   I just don't think that should be a time-out offense unless it's a rampant problem in the class which will get out of hand if she gives an inch.  Much more fun to talk about snail feet vs. cheetah feet, or something like that.

Jen

[skeettafic]

Jen,

I was hoping you would responnd!!!!

I think the teachers mainly use the to when all 8 kids are there and it becomes more of a safety hazard to have them running.  She did say that when one of them start, they all start and when all 8 are there in the relatively small room it has to be controlled quickly.

The other issue that I found out is that Jocelyn is having a hard time sitting at snack/lunch time.  She wants to get up and play in between bites.  This is something we've also been starting to have problems with at home so I definitely need to work with her more on sitting and finishing what she is eating before running off to do something else.  I know your kids are uber-behaved at the table, Jen, so any advice on that would be welcome!  At her school they are basically giving her 3 chances to sit and eat and then they take her food.  It seems on the harsh side to me but I actually think that because Jocelyn is so verbal if the dc and I are consistently explaining it to her in the same way she'll catch on pretty quickly.  She's in this grazing mode right now so I;m having a hard time getting her to sit and eat a meal.   

I like the idea of cheetah and snail feet!  I think she'll like that.  And I have seen them put kids in to when I've been there - both times have been for biting.  I think they do a good job of not turning it into a punishment - there's no to chair or corner or anything, they just have them sit back againist the wall so they aren't in the middle of everything - and they don't reprimand or get angry about it.  Because we had to move her so quickly I didn't get to do a lot of research into how they discipline.  I will definitely be paying more attention to that when we move.

[JenBerry]

Sorry, I've been meaning to come back and address the mealtime thing.  I don't know where you got the idea that my preschool kids are angels at the table, if I said that then it must have been a really good day!

Seriously, most of the time they do sit and eat.  But I have a couple who want to get up and do stuff all the time: play with toys, look at themselves in the mirror, check on their friends' lunches, etc.  I just remind them over and over again to sit down and eat.  Now, Nigel is actually my one who will "forget" he's eating and get up and play, but then if I ask him if he's finished he says "I want more" and freaks out if he sees me putting his food away.  It's usually towards the end of lunch, when I'm helping the other kids clean up their stuff, that he scoots away from the table without me noticing.  When this happens I say something to him, and yeah, I probably do give him just a few chances at coming back, but like I said we're at the end of lunch so he's usually eaten well enough that I figure he could be full.  I also always make sure that they start with their "vitamin foods" first, high protein or the main dish, so by the time anyone's getting antsy they'd just be missing were their side dishes or dessert.

I had a kid last year who was always getting up.  He just could not stay in his seat, and you could tell that at home he was in the habit of eating while playing.  With him I'd start out with "Jack, it's lunch time.  Are you finished?  Ready to put food away?"  And he'd usually come back.  As long as he'd come back to eat, I'd keep it up.  Once he started to dawdle at coming back to the table, though, I figured he'd had enough to satisfy him and he could have a snack when he got home.  I'd give him a baby wipe to clean his face and hands so he KNEW he was done with eating.  After a couple of months of this I did get a little firmer: "Jack, it's lunch time, come back or all finished."  But by that time he was staying to eat a little longer initially before getting up, and he knew what the rule was, so I felt more comfortable with calling him done without so many warnings.

I guess all that is to say that, to some extent you have to let the daycare do what works for them and Jocelyn together, as a partnership.  If you're worried, however, that they're more concerned with rules than with teaching her, then you could certainly have a talk with them about it.  Are you truly worried she's not getting enough to eat?  Are you packing her lunch with an eye to her grazing on high-quality foods, instead of packing a "meal" you know she's not likely to sit for?  I guess I'd make that my first stop, is to pack her lunch very selectively, and let the dc know that you've done so.  Maybe they could just open the most-filling foods to begin with, then open a couple more to keep Jocelyn interested?  And when she's done, just ask them to confirm with her that her tummy feels full, and they can close up her lunch.  Daycare is generally a much more stimulating environment than home, and some kids really do just have their priorities such that once they're not actively hungry, they'd rather be up playing.

Hope that helps!
Jen

[skeettafic]

Thanks, Jen.

It doesn't seem as though they are having problems with her getting up so much at lunchtime - she's hungry after playing so hard all morning so she eats with pretty much no problems but snack time is more difficult.  I don't think that they are overly concerned with it because she's breaking the rules but because she's like you said Nigel is - she'll get up and go play and when they go to take her stuff she freaks out about being hungry.  They pretty much chalked it up to it being a new environment at first and were hoping that the gentle reminders to stay in her seat would be enough but it hasn't been and it has become a struggle with pretty much every snack now. 

I do pack a variety of things in her bag for snacks/lunch throughout the day and they allow her to choose her snacks from what I've sent.  They actually said to me that in the beginning it was hard for her because a lot of the kids get chips and/or cookies regularly for their snacks and she doesn't so she spent snack time eyeing up what everyone else was eating!  And I don't worry that she isn't eating enough because that has never been an issue with her.  It really is just that she'd rather be up and playing and I understand that they have to set some structure around that.  And actually, since I've made some changes to eating snacks at the table while at home she has done much better with sitting and eating until she's done be it with a snack or a meal so it seems that after a couple of times of not getting all of her snack she figured it was better to eat everything first!  And like I said, I have no concerns that she isn't eating enough and if they had told me this issue at a separate time than the other stuff I probably wouldn't have thought twice about it but they hit me with it all at once and I had the "OMG!  My kid is turning into a brat" moment instead of thinking logically. 

[JenBerry]

Yeah, we all have those moments.   Sounds like you have it well in hand, though.

Jen